Al Pacino explains why he originally turned down the role in ‘The Godfather Part II’ : NPR

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I’m Terry Gross. My guest today is Al Pacino.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, “THE GODFATHER”)

AL PACINO: (As Michael Corleone) Don’t ask me about my business, Kay.

DIANE KEATON: (As Kay Adams-Corleone) Is it true?

PACINO: (As Michael Corleone) Don’t ask me about my business.

KEATON: (As Kay Adams-Corleone) No.

PACINO: (As Michael Corleone) Enough.

GROSS: Well, I’m going to ask Pacino about his business, by which I mean his art.

PACINO: It sounded like a shot to me.

GROSS: It did. I know. It’s you slamming the table (laughter).

PACINO: Oh. Oh, as long as it’s not a gun. I’ve had enough of those.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: So I’m going to talk to Pacino about his remarkable performance in “The Godfather” films and other films. We’ll also talk about his life. He’s written a new memoir called “Sonny Boy,” which is the name his mother used to call him. It spans his life from the days he grew up in the South Bronx, raised by a single mother with little money, to falling in love with the language of the great playwrights Strindberg, Chekhov and Shakespeare, getting his start in avant-garde theater in Greenwich Village, surprising himself by becoming a movie star, nearly dying from COVID and all the ups and downs along the way.

In case you need to be reminded, some of his now classic films include “Dog Day Afternoon,” “Serpico” and “Scarface.” Although he starred along with Robert De Niro in “Godfather II,” they never had a scene together, but they were together in “Heat,” and more recently in Martin Scorsese’s film, “The Irishman.” Pacino won an Oscar for his performance and “Scent Of A Woman.” He won an Emmy for his performance in the HBO adaptation of the play “Angels In America,” playing Roy Cohn. He starred in the film adaptation of David Mamet’s Pulitzer Prize-winning play “Glengarry Glen Ross,” and later starred in a Broadway revival of the show, but in a different role.

Al Pacino, welcome to FRESH AIR. So exciting to have you here.

PACINO: Thank you. I’m very happy to be here.

GROSS: I want to get to a lot of your life. I want to start by talking about “The Godfather.” So I want to start with a scene from the first “Godfather” film. You’ve begun your transformation into the killer Michael, into the crime family Michael. You know, you start coming home from the military. You don’t want any part of the crime family, but then you’re kind of pulled in after your father is shot. So…

PACINO: Yes.

GROSS: …Here’s a scene from “Godfather I.” You’ve begun your transformation into the hardened Michael. Your father is still alive, but Michael is preparing to take over from him. And you have become so hardened, like, you hardly blink in some scenes, including this one. So you’re with Moe Greene, a Vegas casino owner kind of modeled on Bugsy Siegel. And the Corleone family has helped back him. Also in the scene is Michael’s older brother, but not very bright brother, Fredo, played by John Cazale, and the family lawyer, Tom, played by Robert Duvall. Moe Greene is played by Alex Rocco. You speak first.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, “THE GODFATHER”)

PACINO: (As Michael Corleone) Corleone family wants to buy you out.

ALEX ROCCO: (As Moe Greene) Corleone family wants to buy me out. No. I buy you out. You don’t buy me out.

PACINO: (As Michael Corleone) Your casino loses money. Maybe we can do better.

ROCCO: (As Moe Greene) You think I’m skimming off the top, Mike?

PACINO: (As Michael Corleone) You’re unlucky.

ROCCO: (As Moe Greene) You damn guineas really make me laugh. I do you a favor and take Freddie in when you’re having a bad time, and then you try to push me out.

PACINO: (As Michael Corleone) Wait a minute. You took Freddie in because the Corleone family bankrolled your casino because the Molinari family on the coast guaranteed his safety. Now we’re talking business. Let’s talk business.

ROCCO: (As Moe Greene) Yeah. Let’s talk business, Mike. First of all, you’re all done. The Corleone family don’t even have that kind of muscle anymore. The godfather is sick, right? You’re getting chased out of New York by Barzini and the other families. What do you think is going on here? You think you can come to my hotel and take over? I talked to Barzini. I can make a deal with him and still keep my hotel.

PACINO: (As Michael Corleone) Is that why you slapped my brother around in public?

JOHN CAZALE: (As Fredo) Oh, now, that was nothing, Mike. Now, now, Moe didn’t mean nothing by that. Sure, he flies off the handle once in a while, but Moe and me were good friends, right, Moe?

ROCCO: (As Moe Greene) I got a business to run. I got to kick asses sometimes to make it run right. We had a little argument, Freddie and I, so I had to straighten him out.

PACINO: (As Michael Corleone) You straightened my brother out?

ROCCO: (As Moe Greene) He was banging cocktail waitress two at a time. Players couldn’t get a drink at the table. What’s wrong with you?

PACINO: (As Michael Corleone) I leave for New York tomorrow. Think about a price.

ROCCO: (As Moe Greene) Do you know who I am? I’m Moe Greene. I made my bones when you were going out with cheerleaders.

CAZALE: (As Fredo) Wait a minute, Moe. I have an idea. Tom, you’re the consigliere. And you can talk to the Don. You can explain…

ROBERT DUVALL: (As Tom Hagen) Just a minute. Don is semi-retired, and Mike is in charge of the family business now. Have anything to say, say it to Michael.

ROCCO: (As Moe Greene) Mike, you don’t come to Las Vegas and talk to a man like Moe Greene like that.

PACINO: (As Michael) Fredo, you’re my older brother, and I love you. But don’t ever take sides with anyone against the family again.

GROSS: I just love that scene so much.

PACINO: Yeah. It’s interesting on radio, too.

GROSS: It works.

PACINO: Just hearing it and not seeing it.

GROSS: Doesn’t it work, though?

PACINO: Yeah. It does.

GROSS: Yeah.

PACINO: Really does. I was thinking maybe they’ll do “The Godfather” on radio someday.

GROSS: (Laughter) That’s a great idea.

PACINO: Yeah.

GROSS: You know, I interviewed Michael Caine years ago and – the great actor Michael Caine. And here was saying…

PACINO: Yes.

GROSS: …When you’re playing a powerful person, you don’t wave your hands around ’cause when you have the power, people are looking at your every subtle gesture. They’re trying to read you. They’re trying to stay in your good graces and stay safe. And so weak people move their hands around. Powerful people don’t. When we started talking, you were moving around a lot. So I’m thinking, was it hard for you to be as still as Michael is when he is exerting his power ’cause he knows how to not be still when he needs to, but he can be very still…

PACINO: Yes.

GROSS: …And very opaque and very threatening at the same time.

PACINO: I know. I don’t know how I did that.

GROSS: (Laughter) Yeah, I was wondering.

PACINO: I don’t know till this day what possessed me.

GROSS: You literally, like, don’t blink in that scene. I think you blinked once. How do you do that?

PACINO: Well, I was in the situation, as they say, and I guess it came to me, you know, because things like that happened if you, you know, stay the course, meaning if you are with whoever you are when you’re playing it and your instincts are operating. I guess I was lucky, and I just went in that direction, and I didn’t do it consciously.

GROSS: You were nearly fired from the movie after the opening scene. And you write in the book that the opening scene was such a stupid scene for the audition because Michael is so, like, not a part of the family. He doesn’t really…

PACINO: Yeah.

GROSS: …Know who he is yet. His future is uncharted, and he’s naive. So yeah. Go ahead.

PACINO: Judgment was off on picking that scene, I think, because it’s a scene of, you know, quasi-exposition. So…

GROSS: Yes.

PACINO: …When you’re going through it, what are you supposed to do?

GROSS: He’s just describing to his girlfriend, Kay, who later becomes…

PACINO: Yes.

GROSS: …His wife, like, who’s here and who his family is and who they’ve helped kill and…

PACINO: I know.

GROSS: So yeah.

PACINO: All these wonderful…

GROSS: Just to set up the story.

PACINO: …People auditioned.

GROSS: Yeah.

PACINO: I remember them all – all of us, the young actors just doing that scene. And I thought, well, what can they see from that, you know? But somehow I was the lucky one because Francis always wanted me before there was a script.

GROSS: Francis Ford Coppola. Yeah.

PACINO: Yeah. He always wanted me to play Michael. That was in his vision. Even though it wasn’t in mine, I’ll tell you that. I thought he might be making a mistake. I thought…

GROSS: You thought he was kidding and it was a phony phone call.

PACINO: Well, I did think when he called me and told me that he was given “The Godfather” to direct – ’cause I knew him, like, a year ago before that, where I went out to San Francisco to do something with him. And I saw where he worked and the Zoetrope that – with Spielberg there and Lucas and all those – DePalma and all those ’70s filmmakers that were about to explode on the scene. And I had met them in San Francisco, right? And he was getting to know me for another role he was doing in a movie that he wrote, “Love Story,” which never got off the ground. And I went back to New York, and I hadn’t heard from him in about a year. And then he called me, and I said, oh, Francis. I spent some time with him – three or four days. So I got to know him a little bit. And I thought, this guy’s got something very special.

And he called me and told me he had “The Godfather.” I thought, now he’s gone too far. I thought, what life can do to you, you know? Now he’s fantasizing things. So I said, OK. I went along with it. But after a while, I started to think, wait a minute. I think Paramount is pretty smart to pick this guy because this guy knows his stuff, and it’s an Italian American. It’s – he understands it somewhere. They picked him. You know, he had won an Oscar already for the script of “Patton,” the George C. Scott film that was so wonderful. And so he already was starting to establish himself in Hollywood. And then I started to think, maybe he is going to do it. But when he said he wanted me to play Michael, then I thought, oh, he’s really in a fantasy.

GROSS: So you starred with Robert De Niro in “Godfather II,” but you’re not in any scenes together because he’s of a different generation from before you were born. And – however, you do have scenes together in “Heat” and also in “The Irishman.” And I want to play a great scene from “The Irishman.”

PACINO: Sure.

GROSS: OK. So here’s a scene with you and De Niro, toward the end of the film. And you’ve just gotten out of prison. He plays Frank Sheeran, and Frank Sheeran is somebody who got very connected to the mob, and then he became – you played Jimmy Hoffa, the head of the Teamsters Union. He became your bodyguard. So in this scene, you’ve only recently gotten out of prison. There was a big kind of ceremony in your honor. And then De Niro, as Frank Sheeran, comes up to you and explains that basically that your time’s up, that the mob wants you out of the Teamsters, out of the leadership position that you want to return to.

PACINO: Yes.

GROSS: But you’re both talking between the lines. You’re not coming right out and saying anything. You’re talking between the lines. It’s a great scene. You pingpong back and forth. So let’s hear it. It starts with De Niro.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, “THE IRISHMAN”)

ROBERT DE NIRO: (As Frank Sheeran) Tony told the old man to tell me to tell you it’s what it is.

PACINO: (As Jimmy Hoffa) What it is.

DE NIRO: (As Frank Sheeran) It’s what it is. Please listen to me.

PACINO: (As Jimmy Hoffa) They wouldn’t dare.

DE NIRO: (As Frank Sheeran) Don’t say that.

PACINO: (As Jimmy Hoffa) They wouldn’t dare.

DE NIRO: (As Frank Sheeran) Jimmy, don’t.

PACINO: (As Jimmy Hoffa) Please, Frank. Come on.

DE NIRO: (As Frank Sheeran) Don’t say they wouldn’t dare.

PACINO: (As Jimmy Hoffa) No, don’t tell me that kind of – that’s fairy tales. Please.

DE NIRO: (As Frank Sheeran) Don’t say they wouldn’t dare. Please.

PACINO: (As Jimmy Hoffa) Something funny happens to me, they’re done. You understand that. And they know it because I got files. I got proof. I got records. I got tapes. Anytime I want, they’ll be gone. These [expletive] spend the rest of their lives in jail, and they know it. They know it.

DE NIRO: (As Frank Sheeran) But what you’re saying is what they’re concerned about.

PACINO: (As Jimmy Hoffa) What I’m saying is I know things. I know things they don’t know I know. Please.

DE NIRO: (As Frank Sheeran) Do you want to take that chance?

PACINO: (As Jimmy Hoffa) What chance am I on?

DE NIRO: (As Frank Sheeran) Jim…

PACINO: (As Jimmy Hoffa) Why should I be taking a chance?

DE NIRO: (As Frank Sheeran) They’re saying this is it.

PACINO: (As Jimmy Hoffa) They’re saying this is it, and then it’s it.

DE NIRO: (As Frank Sheeran) Jimmy, I’m trying to tell you something.

PACINO: (As Jimmy Hoffa) I know you are. You’re telling me they’re threatening me, and I got to do what they say, which is absolute…

DE NIRO: (As Frank Sheeran) It’s more than a threat. It’s the bottom line.

PACINO: (As Jimmy Hoffa) Bottom line.

DE NIRO: (As Frank Sheeran) It’s what it is.

PACINO: (As Jimmy Hoffa) They do something to me. I do something to them. That’s all I know. I don’t know anything else to you.

GROSS: You don’t get that De Niro tell you they’re going to kill you in this (inaudible).

PACINO: Yeah.

GROSS: And they do. Yeah.

PACINO: It was so fun.

GROSS: So you and De Niro are both such intense actors. You’re of the same generation. So when you’re working together, do you have a similar style of either preparing or of – like, does one of you want, like, a thousand takes and another one of you only want one? You know, like, what are your commonalities and your clashes when you’re working together?

PACINO: I see all just commonalities there. You know, it’s like we’ve been doing this for many years. And even when we did “Heat” together, Bob said to me – when it’s a scene just between the two guys, if you remember, in “Heat,” and he said to me, let’s not rehearse. I said, OK, let’s not. So I went to the scene, and Michael Mann approved of not rehearsing. And I thought it was a good idea because these two guys didn’t know each other. So – and we sort of knew our words, but so what if we didn’t? We were there. And it went on. And that’s the scene.

GROSS: And it worked.

PACINO: And because – it worked because we were meeting for the first time in the movie.

GROSS: Right.

PACINO: It’s interesting. I was all ready to rehearse, and he said, let’s try not rehearsing. Let’s just do it that way, see what happens. And I feel he was really right. So we have that kind of freedom with each other because we know each other from years of working. And, yeah, he’s so easy to work with, Bob. You know, he just – anything you do or say and – he’s there. He hears it.

GROSS: Well, let’s take a break here, and then we’ll talk some more. If you’re just joining us, my guest is Al Pacino. He has a new memoir, and it’s called “Sonny Boy.” We’ll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF FRANK WESS AND JOHNNY COLES’ “WHISTLE STOP (TAKE ONE)”)

GROSS: …Get back to my interview with Al Pacino. He’s written a new memoir. It’s called “Sonny Boy.”

So you grew up in the South Bronx. You hung out with a pretty tough crowd.

PACINO: Yeah.

GROSS: And you still, like, jumped from rooftop to rooftop.

PACINO: Oh, yeah, we were wild.

GROSS: You threw trash down…

PACINO: More wild that…

GROSS: You’d be on the rooftop and throw trash down on Saturday nights…

PACINO: On Saturday nights when…

GROSS: …To young men with their dates.

PACINO: Yeah, yeah. We would go there and throw, like, lettuce at them and stuff. And they always wanted to kill us, but they couldn’t catch us. We would do it on occasion, on occasion. We didn’t do it a lot, but when we did, I remember it.

GROSS: Where was the fun in doing that?

PACINO: God only knows…

GROSS: (Laughter).

PACINO: …Because nobody else was doing it. It was something we were all doing together, like we were in an orchestra. We just would go up there and – like, part of growing up where I was, was being chased. That was the fun of everything.

GROSS: Chased by who?

PACINO: By anybody that we screwed around with. And, you know, that’s how we did – we didn’t only do these things, I’m sorry. They stand out from time to time. But I remember my childhood as running.

GROSS: At least three of your closest friends died of drug-related deaths. Were they heroin overdoses?

PACINO: Yeah.

GROSS: How did you manage to avoid that yourself?

PACINO: Well, I believe, my mother. My mother just was there, and she just said, no way, you know? Like, there’s scenes in the book that reflect that. You know, it was just territory there in the South Brox. They were calling me late at night on a school night to come on out. You know, who knows what they were going to be doing? I think it’s in the book, too. And they call up, and my mother just said no. And I was so angry with her.

You know, all these things come back to you. And you finally – I remember when, 30 years ago, I’m in my house in New York. I had a house there. And I’m shaving to go to an event because I’m getting an award of some sort. And I was thinking about, what am I going to say, you know? So I started thinking, and then it just dawns on me. I’m shaving. You know, I see my face in the mirror. And I thought, you’re here because of your mother. What’s the matter with you? I said, yeah, it’s true. So I had this realization at age 52 that my mother was everything, you know?

GROSS: How old was she when she died? Did she get to see you be successful?

PACINO: No. My grandfather nor my mother saw me. They both died before I became successful. Yep.

GROSS: Your parents divorced before you were 2.

PACINO: Yeah.

GROSS: When you were around 8 months old, you were taken away from your mother.

PACINO: No, I think I was a year and a half. And I stayed with them for eight months.

GROSS: Stayed with your grandparents?

PACINO: Yeah, my father’s mother and father.

GROSS: And you say at least you were placed with family…

PACINO: And thank God for that.

GROSS: And not a foster home.

PACINO: Yeah, that’s right.

GROSS: Why were you taken away from your mother?

PACINO: I would imagine – of course, I’m not very clear on that. I learned that after my mother had died from relatives that came to see me on Broadway, and it was just a revelation. And then, you know, a bulb went off in my head. And I thought, uh-oh (ph). There it is. That’s why I do some of the things I do.

GROSS: Like what?

PACINO: I don’t know – like the behavior I had and the way I was in life. And that startled me. I went into therapy for the next 40 years.

GROSS: After finding out about that?

PACINO: Trauma. It’s just trauma, you know? Trauma, we all have trauma.

GROSS: Trauma you didn’t even know you had. That’s interesting.

PACINO: Yeah, I didn’t.

GROSS: But that doesn’t mean it didn’t affect you.

PACINO: Oh, of course. No, no. So I know that my grandmother on my father’s side raised me to the point where – my grandmother and grandfather – that she had visitation rights in the divorce papers, which I found out. And she was simply the most wonderful person. I think I went there when I was a year and a half. That’s tough stuff.

GROSS: So we need to take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you.

PACINO: OK.

GROSS: My guest is Al Pacino, and he’s written a new memoir called “Sonny Boy.” We’ll be right back after a short break. I’m Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF GIORGIO MORODER’S “MAIN TITLE (FROM THE MOTION PICTURE ‘SCARFACE’)”)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I’m Terry Gross. Let’s get back to my interview with Al Pacino. He has a new memoir called “Sonny Boy.” When we left off, we were talking about growing up in the South Bronx with his grandparents and single mother.

There was a point where your mother was crying and kissing you all over, and you were very young, and you weren’t understanding what’s up. Why is that happening? And then you return home and you see there’s an ambulance in front of the building, and it’s your mother who they’re there for.

PACINO: Yeah.

GROSS: Was that – did she attempt to die by suicide?

PACINO: Yeah. Yes.

GROSS: How old were you?

PACINO: I was about 6.

GROSS: Did it register on you what had happened? Did you comprehend it?

PACINO: I couldn’t quite at 6. I knew something was up. And I was, you know, I lived with my grandmother and grandfather and my mother. And I remember all sitting at a table. I think this was after the war. So my uncle would be there, my aunt would be there. Everybody was talking about what to do, and I remember sitting there. And they let me sit there. So I didn’t quite understand what they were saying, but I knew it was a serious thing. And – but, you know, she came back. And yeah.

GROSS: That must have…

PACINO: But seeing her…

GROSS: …Been traumatizing, too.

PACINO: …And leaving on – seeing her in the street, somebody said to me as I’m running to see the ambulance, you know, we rarely saw ambulances coming on our block, and I saw – and there she was on a stretcher going into the ambulance. And I thought – ’cause I couldn’t believe it was my mother. These things don’t happen to my mother, you know? And it was her ’cause they said, hey, I hear it’s your mother, Sonny. It’s your mother. My mother? I said, no, nothing happens to my mother. And I remember that feeling. And then the shock of seeing her in that. It was, as they say, surreal. But it’s clear in my memory.

GROSS: Yeah. She must have loved movies ’cause she took you to the movies when you were little.

PACINO: Oh, she loved everything. My mother was very smart. She was – she read, had played the piano and, I mean, very poor, of course, but she was very intelligent. And my mother decided to go to the theatre and take me to Broadway shows among other things, but she loved “Cat On A Hot Tin Roof” and those kind of shows. And she was very into…

GROSS: She took you to see – when you were 5, she took you to see “The Lost Weekend,” staring Ray…

PACINO: Yes. Yeah.

GROSS: …Milland as this, like, raging alcoholic. It’s a great film. But, he – you know, he got very self-destructive. And I don’t know. You were 5, and then you started acting out those scenes at home…

PACINO: Yeah. I started acting out the scenes.

GROSS: …Because you were so into it.

PACINO: Yeah. I would act all the time. When Mom took me to the movies, I’d come back – ’cause we lived alone, and there was nobody there to play with. So I’d act out all the parts in the films I saw. And I acted out “The Lost Weekend.” And I showed it to my mother. My mother said, oh, what is this? And then she started laughing. Then she’d show it to the family. Or when I was somewhere, they’d say, Sonny, do “The Lost Weekend,” and I would do “The Lost Weekend.”

And I never understood why they would laugh at someone in this predicament because it’s where he’s searching for a bottle of booze that he hid somewhere when he was sober, and now he couldn’t find it and – when he was drunk, and now he can’t find it. And he goes crazy opening drawers and so – and I loved doing that. I think it’s a memory. And they would be laughing, and I would say, why are they laughing, to myself.

GROSS: Do you understand now?

PACINO: I sort of do.

GROSS: It’s kind of funny to see a 5-year-old playing…

PACINO: Well, yeah.

GROSS: …An adult in crisis…

PACINO: Yeah, adult in crisis.

GROSS: …Who was totally disillusioned and – yeah.

PACINO: With real commitment. I was right there.

GROSS: Well…

PACINO: Yeah.

GROSS: You became an actor.

PACINO: Yes.

GROSS: Yeah. And you fell in with avant-garde theater, which I didn’t…

PACINO: Yes.

GROSS: …Know until reading the book. But even…

PACINO: Yeah.

GROSS: …Before that, you’d fallen in love with Strindberg and Chekov and Shakespeare.

PACINO: Oh, God, yes. I was…

GROSS: I’m curious. Like, as a teenager, before you were really deeply involved with theatre – although you did go to the high school of performing arts.

PACINO: Yes.

GROSS: So can you recite a few lines that really stuck with you and meant something important to you when you were in your teens from one of those three – Strindberg, Chekov, Shakespeare?

PACINO: I – oh, boy, I feel like I’m at an auditioned.

GROSS: You’re going to be graded.

PACINO: I don’t know what that would be. I – oh, I know, that was some play I did called “The King And I.” Whenever I feel afraid, I hold my head erect, whistle a happy tune so no one will suspect I’m afraid. The other one was, I guess, somewhere, I have never traveled gladly beyond any experience. Your eyes have their silence. In your most frail gesture are things which enclose me or which I cannot touch because they are too near – something. Your look will easily unclose me, though I have closed myself as fingers, you open always me petal by petal as spring opens, touching skillfully, mysteriously, her first rose. I do not know what it is about you that opens and closes. I only know that the voice of your eyes is deeper than all roses. Nobody, not even the rain, has such small hands. Ah, there it is. It’s impromptu.

GROSS: What was that from?

PACINO: That’s E. E. Cummings.

GROSS: Oh, OK. So you sang a few bars of “Whistle A Happy Tune.”

PACINO: Yeah. I was in “The King And I,” and so I remember it.

GROSS: I was surprised to read that you were in musicals. I never…

PACINO: Yes.

GROSS: I’ve never heard you sing until this very moment.

PACINO: I was offered a musical. What was it – a big one? What’s the big movie they made? “Zorba The Greek.” Yes. They did “Zorba,” and I was offered it to play Alan Bates’ role.

GROSS: Oh, I thought you were going to say Anthony Quinn

PACINO: It was Anthony Quinn and Alan Bates. They wanted me to play the Bates role on Broadway, Hal Prince, because he saw me in “Indian Wants The Bronx.” So he asked me if I would come in and audition, so I had to go with somebody who actually turned out to be Marvin Hamlisch. And I didn’t know at the time, and he wasn’t well-known at the time.

And I would go to his house, his apartment in Brooklyn with his mother and father, and I would practice, you know, with him. I never said anything to him. I just went in there, practiced. So there was a place that – Mary Martin was on Broadway doing something, some play. I forget. And it was a kind of innovation. They had the piano onstage but hidden by curtains. So that’s where I auditioned for Hal Prince after working with Marvin Hamlisch. And I went into the theater, and I auditioned with the song from “Guys And Dolls,” which is (singing) luck be a lady tonight.

You know? And I started on doing it, and Marvin Hamlisch was supposed to be there. But I looked around and I didn’t see the piano or anything. And I said, you know, to the folks out there, I was auditioning with this guy who was teaching me how to sing. But I don’t think – he’s not here now. I said, so I don’t know. And then all of a sudden, I heard him yelling from behind the curtain in back, I’m here, I’m here.

GROSS: (Laughter).

PACINO: So I thought, oh, I have to go through this audition now. So I sang, you know, and forgot all the words. And I remember leaving – and it wasn’t a good audition, if you know what I mean. And I remember leaving with him. And he said to me, you know, I thought you would maybe forget some of the lines. But you forgot all of the lines.

GROSS: (Laughter).

PACINO: He was mad. I said, well, I don’t know. I’m just not used to it, I guess. But anyway, they gave me the part.

GROSS: Well, let’s take a break here, and then we’ll talk some more. If you’re just joining us, my guest is Al Pacino. He has a new memoir, and it’s called Sonny Boy. We’ll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF BEBO VALDES TRIO’S “SON DE LA LOMA”)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let’s get back to my interview with Al Pacino. He’s written a new memoir. It’s called “Sonny Boy.”

You were going to turn down the role in “Godfather II.”

PACINO: Well, the only reason I stayed in “Godfather I” is, I mean, you would quit if you were in it…

GROSS: (Laughter).

PACINO: …When everybody’s over there giggling at what you’re doing, you know, and the whispers on the set. I said, I don’t want to be here. I said, I don’t like being around people who don’t want me around. I’ve never been that way. I just sort of shy off. I don’t want to be there. For Francis…

GROSS: But for “Godfather II” – I mean, “Godfather I” was already a success. But with “II”…

PACINO: Oh, yeah. “Godfather II,” yeah.

GROSS: Mario Puzo comes up to you with this script that he’d written, and he said, this is crap (laughter).

PACINO: Yes. He said, I just want you to know before you read it, they want to do it, and that this is crap. And I read it, and he was right. It was not good. And so I just thought, well – and they kept upping the ante. They kept giving me more money. And I kept saying, but I don’t want to do it. And then finally when Francis – because Francis wasn’t on the project. So Francis got on the project. And he cut them off at about 700,000. He said, no, he doesn’t want money. He wants a good script. Stop giving him the money (laughter).

GROSS: Wait. So was the script rewritten?

PACINO: Yeah. Well, he wrote it.

GROSS: This is a great script.

PACINO: I know. It was a great script.

GROSS: Oh, Coppola rewrote the script.

PACINO: Yeah, with Mario. And partially – it was almost done, but me and Charlie still didn’t think certain things were right. So me and Charlie went out to San Francisco, and we said let’s see if we could do this, you know, because – and Francis did, really, a great job. And we just worked with him a little bit. And I remember thinking that was a very memorable moment, you know? So then it was done. I said yes. And it was a tough shoot for me because – I just don’t know. It was a time of my life where – it’s hard to describe it without lying down on the couch (laughter).

GROSS: It was hard because of your personal life or…

PACINO: Of course – everything. I guess where my drinking had gotten to or – all of it. I found myself in a state of mind that was difficult. I took Valium. Remember those days? Oh, you don’t. You’re too young.

GROSS: Valium?

PACINO: Valium.

GROSS: I remember those days.

PACINO: Do you remember Valium?

GROSS: Of course.

PACINO: Oh.

GROSS: I didn’t take it.

PACINO: No.

GROSS: But certainly knew all about it.

PACINO: Yeah.

GROSS: I mean, it was everywhere.

PACINO: Yeah.

GROSS: Like, there were jokes about it and dramas about it.

PACINO: Oh, yeah.

GROSS: It was, like, one of the first really popular…

PACINO: Yeah.

GROSS: …Antianxiety medications.

PACINO: Yeah. I took that and drank at the same time, which is a no-no.

GROSS: That’s – yeah, that is.

PACINO: So I was a lucky boy.

GROSS: How did you manage to get through the film? You’re so good in it. I mean, you’re so good in the film. How did you manage?

PACINO: Well, that’s probably why. I was so – but thank you for mentioning that. It just went very far. I went very far into it, because I always thought by the end of “Godfather” one, it looked like Michael was starting to become encased in whatever – this thing took over him, you know, this place he went to, to survive, to save his father’s life and to continue his life. And it was a tough one, you know, because I sort of see in “Godfather II” a man who’s cutting himself off.

GROSS: He’s had to emotionally shut down to do what he…

PACINO: Yeah.

GROSS: …Felt he needed to do…

PACINO: Yes. Yes.

GROSS: …And become a monster.

PACINO: Yes.

GROSS: Did that have an impact on you, having to…

PACINO: It had to.

GROSS: …Emotionally shut down for the role?

PACINO: It had to. It had to. And I’ve learned since when you play situations and people that are caught up in that web, it’s best to be happy every day, sing cheery songs and then go on.

GROSS: Yeah.

PACINO: It’s actually true. I’ve known some actors – very good actors – who just say, nope. Nope. I’m just doing my thing. They could be dancing and singing and then just go right to it.

GROSS: But not you.

PACINO: At that time – I would do it now. Of course I do it. Yeah. The more difficult the role, the more – you know, the more demanding or whatever, you go the other way in your preparation because you got it all in you now. I mean, this – you know, I think, just through experience and doing this – the saying goes, time keeps me green, you know, because when you are acting or that thing that we do – and after a while, it gets there into the body and into the – it just – it becomes part of you. And you don’t have to act anymore.

GROSS: Well, let’s take a break here, and then we’ll talk some more. If you’re just joining us, my guest is Al Pacino. He has a new memoir, and it’s called “Sonny Boy.” We’ll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF GILAD HEKSELMAN’S “DO RE MI FA SOL”)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let’s get back to my interview with Al Pacino. He’s written a new memoir. It’s called “Sonny Boy.”

So you had to have surgery on your carotid artery. I guess it was clogged.

PACINO: Oh, God, on both of them. Yeah.

GROSS: Both of them. OK.

PACINO: Yeah.

GROSS: And…

PACINO: I had four strokes.

GROSS: Oh. I didn’t realize.

PACINO: It was not fun. But at the same time, it was diagnosed as something else. And I thought, I’m having some killer migraines, as it was. But it wasn’t. It was something else TIAs. And they’re small. They’re sort of minor. And then it was happening with frequency. And it’s the kind of a thing where, all of a sudden, you know, you can’t quite see. And then you can’t quite speak. You can’t talk, put words together. That’s kind of scary when you’re driving a car. So I thought, this is something. And it went on for about a half hour to get…

GROSS: You had one of these TIA mini-strokes while you were driving a car?

PACINO: Yeah, I did.

GROSS: Oh, it’s lucky you survived that.

PACINO: Ah, lucky. Yeah.

GROSS: I want to ask you about another medical event that, you know, almost killed you. This is, like, during the COVID…

PACINO: Oh, the COVID thing.

GROSS: You almost died. You flatlined.

PACINO: Well, that’s what I thought I did. I was standing there. I was getting – I had COVID. And I was getting – how do you call it? I was dehydrated, and so they were hydrating me. The next thing I know, I’m opening my eyes. And there’s six paramedics in my living room and two doctors dressed like they’re spacemen head to toe with all this stuff over them. And I said…

GROSS: Oh, protective gear to prevent COVID…

PACINO: What? Yes.

GROSS: …From spreading to them. Yeah.

PACINO: Yes. I thought, what could this be (laughter)? I just thought, whoa.

GROSS: Do you live alone now?

PACINO: Yeah.

GROSS: How do you like it?

PACINO: I’m not crazy about it, but what’s the alternative? I live in such a great place and such a good area. And I have friends, and that’s good. And I go out to dinners with people. And so I’m fine.

GROSS: What you do say in the book is that you thought you had experienced death.

PACINO: I sure did. I really did.

GROSS: But what you experienced…

PACINO: I mean, it was like…

GROSS: …Was like nothingness. It wasn’t…

PACINO: I’m sorry to say that.

GROSS: Yeah. You didn’t see, like, a bright light. You didn’t feel like you were looking down…

PACINO: No.

GROSS: …At yourself from the sky or the ceiling. It was just, like, the absence of anything.

PACINO: No. I saw Marvin Hamlisch playing the piano.

GROSS: (Laughter).

PACINO: I’m just joking. I mean…

GROSS: I get it.

PACINO: You get it.

GROSS: Yeah.

PACINO: I didn’t see anything. I opened my eyes. I thought, what happened? That’s what I thought. And then I saw this. And, you know, that’s a new experience. I never had that experience. And then they started watching me and stuff and the recovery and all.

GROSS: Whether you nearly died or just briefly unconscious…

PACINO: Well, it did have an effect on me. I mean…

GROSS: Yeah. That’s what I’m interested in.

PACINO: I do think – exactly right. I do think about now more about death than I ever did before. And I think about, what is this? And how does one just understand it a little better? But there’s various ways, you know? And the best, I think, is not to think about it, but try that.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: For some people, the answer is, oh, now I believe in God. For other people, it is, you know…

PACINO: Well, I always believed in God, I mean, whatever that is. I always do. I always have. That’s something that is – whatever God is.

GROSS: Did it make you any more or less afraid of death?

PACINO: I think I got a little more concerned about it. Let’s put it this way. Or I wonder about it. You know, I’m in my 85th year. So that’s there. You know, when you talk to people, it’s there. It’s going to be there. How could it not be there?

GROSS: Has it affected how you want to spend whatever time you have left?

PACINO: No. Whatever time I have left is – I don’t think that way.

GROSS: I didn’t mean, like, oh, this is, like, the end. But I mean, like, sometimes you rethink, like, what do I want out of life at this stage of my life? Do I want to work more? Do I want to work less?

PACINO: Well, yes. You know, it’s a question of appetite and desire to do what everybody does, really. Sometimes you have appetite to go home and look at the football game. But appetite to take on something as part of your history – I mean, I’ve been doing this my whole life. I can’t think of anything else I would do. Sometimes you can’t afford not to do it. So you go do something, and, you know, like they say at AA, bring the body. The mind will follow. So you go and say, I don’t know that I want to do this particular role, but it’s a good role. And I’ll bring my body, and my mind will follow. Once I start to work on it, those juices come, and then the thing that goes along with it comes.

That’s how I see it. And if you’re lucky, you read something and you want to do it. You have an appetite to do it. So there are very few things like that that have happened to me in my life that I had the appetite to do a particular role. And usually those roles were failures when I did them.

(LAUGHTER)

PACINO: So who can say?

GROSS: Thank you so much for talking with us.

PACINO: Oh, it’s been a pleasure – same here.

GROSS: And thank you for all your great films, all your great performances and for the book.

PACINO: Thank you very much. Thank you.

GROSS: Be well.

PACINO: You, too.

GROSS: Al Pacino’s new memoir is called “Sonny Boy.” Let’s close with a famous scene from his film “Dog Day Afternoon.” Pacino’s character is robbing a bank to pay for his lover’s gender affirmation surgery, but everything’s gone wrong, and he’s holding everyone at the bank hostage. In this scene, he stepped outside, where he’s surrounded by police. Police snipers are on the surrounding rooftops, and a police detective, played by Charles Durning, is trying to get him to release the hostages. A crowd of people has gathered outside the bank, watching the whole spectacle.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, “DOG DAY AFTERNOON”)

CHARLES DURNING: (As Eugene Moretti) Come on. Quit while you’re ahead. All you got is attempted robbery.

PACINO: (As Sonny Wortzik) Armed robbery.

DURNING: (As Eugene Moretti) All right, armed, then.

PACINO: (As Sonny Wortzik) Yeah.

DURNING: (As Eugene Moretti) Nobody’s been hurt. Release the hostages. Nobody’s going to worry over kidnapping charges. The most you’re going to get is five years. You get out in one year.

PACINO: (As Sonny Wortzik) Kiss me, man.

DURNING: (As Eugene Moretti) What?

PACINO: (As Sonny Wortzik) Kiss me. When I’m being [expletive], I like to get kissed a lot.

DURNING: (As Eugene Moretti) Hey. Come on. Come on now. Come on.

PACINO: (As Sonny Wortzik) You’re a city cop, right? Robbing a bank’s a federal offense. They got me on kidnapping, armed robbery. They’re going to bury me, man. I don’t want to talk to somebody who’s trying to calm me. Get somebody in charge here.

DURNING: (As Eugene Moretti) I am in charge here.

PACINO: (As Sonny Wortzik) I don’t want to talk to some flunky pig trying to calm me.

DURNING: (As Eugene Moretti) Hey. You don’t have to be calling me pig.

PACINO: (As Sonny Wortzik) What’s he doing?

DURNING: (As Eugene Moretti) Will you get back over there?

PACINO: (As Sonny Wortzik) What are they over in there for?

DURNING: (As Eugene Moretti) Will you get the [expletive] back? Get back here. What are you doing? Look at him. Get over there.

PACINO: (As Sonny Wortzik) Go back there, man.

DURNING: (As Eugene Moretti) Get over there, will you?

PACINO: (As Sonny Wortzik) He wants to kill me so bad he can taste it.

DURNING: (As Eugene Moretti) OK. No one’s going to kill anybody.

PACINO: (As Sonny Wortzik) Attica. Attica. Attica. Attica. Attica. Attica. Attica. Attica. Attica. Attica. Attica.

(SOUNDBITE OF MICHAEL JACKSON SONG, “THRILLER”)

GROSS: Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we’ll remember Quincy Jones and listen back to my 2001 interview with him. He died Sunday. He was an arranger, composer and producer for music that spans from the big bands through bebop, pop, movie soundtracks, TV themes and hip-hop. He arranged or produced recordings for Frank Sinatra, Ray Charles and Aretha Franklin and produced Michael Jackson’s albums “Off The Wall,” “Bad” and “Thriller.” I hope you’ll join us.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “THRILLER”)

MICHAEL JACKSON: (Singing) ‘Cause this is thriller, thriller night. And no one’s going to save you from the beast about to strike. You know it’s thriller, thriller night. You’re fighting for your life inside a killer thriller tonight. Yeah.

GROSS: FRESH AIR’s executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producers are Molly Seavy-Nesper and Sabrina Siewert. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I’m Terry Gross.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “MOODY’S MOOD”)

UNIDENTIFIED MUSICAL ARTIST: (Singing) There I go. There I go. There I go. There she went. There I go. There I go. There I go. There I go. Listen, baby. You are the soul who snaps my control. Such a funny thing, but every time I’m near you, I never can explain. You give me a smile, and then I’m wrapped up in your magic. There’s music all around me, crazy music, music that’s drawing me close.

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